Cleaver Feedback

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mikade
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So, when 0.9.18 came out a lot of players had a lot of bad things to say about the new cleaver weapon.

I think it would be good to have a place to maybe group some of that feedback (and possibly adjust the weapon as a result), and thus I made this thread.

Personally I think the cleaver should have a different sprite, be considerably smaller, do a lot less damage, and not end turn. If the issue of not being able to move after you have fired (like sticky mine, for example) is gonna persist in the next version of Hedgewars, I would also recommend it changing to a single shot weapon.

So, what do YOU think about cleaver? What do like about it, what do you dislike? How would you change it?
etc.

mikade
Hedgewars Developer

Schoddie
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To be honest, I do not know anything about the cleaver weapon. I throw it to the wall/hog and nothing happen...
For sure noboby wants to read that here, but now I want to find out how to use that weapon. Thanks!!

Star and Moon
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Cleaver is fine in it's current state, just in certain circumstances having it smaller would help very much.

nemo
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I'd initially had cleaver half its current size. Sheepluva wanted it larger.

I wanted some kind of damage influenced by how hard it was thrown. That's a tricky thing to balance, but I'm open to suggestions on that front.

I take it from your "do a lot less damage" that you've figured out how to maximise damage.

One advantage of the large size is it makes getting a 2nd shot at a hog a bit harder.

The multishot behaviour is fixed in next release. I think multishot is important for cleaver since it allows you to use one for climbing, and still get an attack in.

Also, I like the idea of dual wielding cleavers.

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nemo
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FWIW, greatly reduced cleaver radius in flight. This means cleaver embeds into things a bit more.
Nerfed damage as mikade requested as well. Now if you're standing over hogs, and firing at max power at 45 deg from a moderate height, it'll do about 27dmg per cleaver.

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Oh, what the heck. 1PLXzL1CBUD1kdEWqMrwNUfGrGiirV1WpH <= tip a hedgewars dev

mikade
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Yay, I'm glad to hear about reduced radius in flight. My main suggestion for reducing size was because of the scores of times I've seen people try to throw a cleaver "straight" and end up with it stuck right in front of them. Aghh

My sprite suggestion is changing it to something perhaps more representative of the cleaver's actual shape, as I've also seen people fall through it quite a bit.

With regards to damage, multi-shot, and ending turn, that's mainly just you and I envisaging different uses of the weapon. You see it as more of a weapon and it should probably actually deal considerably more damage in that case (if it's unlikely you are going to hit the same hog twice) and end turn.

Whereas, I see it as a finisher/movement utility. I want something that only deals like 1-5 damage and doesn't end turn. That way it would help get around as well as filling in the strategy hole after mudball got nerfed. If I wanted something to help me climb and then deal about 25 damage I would just use shotgun.

mikade
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nemo
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Was intended for use cases where shotgun would not be able to allow you up. Where you would throw it at a sheer cliff and jump up and into it.

Based on what you envisioned, I think I'm going to crank up the damage a bit, back more in line w/ what I'd intended, so it can do at least 30 damage from a reasonable angle after getting to new location. Only one use in default wep set anyway.

For people who are a bit puzzled by it, here are the envisioned uses.

* Climb a sheer wall using 1 or both cleavers. With some care it can even be used to get into normally almost impossible ceiling locations.
* Pin a hog into a corner while dealing damage to it. Nice for a hog that tunnelled in so you can attack w/o being attacked back.
* Block off an entry way (such as a tunnel) - actually more effective than a girder for this, since you can fit in more tunnel variants, and it is likely to resist a single shotgun blast.
* Toss it w/ little force to offer an obstacle to help keep you from getting knocked off a bad location, if you don't have a girder, or girder would have prevented an attack.
* Protect against drill strike. Yes, really. Tossing it up against a ceiling, causes drills to explode against it. Depending on your position, it might hit you for a small amount of damage, but often not even do that.
* I'd kinda hoped it could be used in shoppa, tossing 'em around the map w/ rope. Although my experiments on this front have so far been regrettably hit or miss, as I not infrequently did damage to myself. An expert shoppa player might have more success.
* Deal a significant amount of damage to a hog or barrel, w/ the added challenge element of first cleaver getting in the way. I'd tweaked it so that it was possible to blow up a barrel w/ 2 cleavers, and the probabilities so the barrel would usually knock one off-screen, which entertained me.

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Oh, what the heck. 1PLXzL1CBUD1kdEWqMrwNUfGrGiirV1WpH <= tip a hedgewars dev

Wuzzy
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I have no idea how the cleaver works / is supposed to work, like Schoddie. Can someone explain it to me?

Hi, I am a Hedgewars developer. Smile

Star and Moon
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All I know is that it deals more damage the harder you throw it, it also seems to do more damage when thrown down.

nemo
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Does more damage thrown down 'cause it moves faster thrown down ofc :-p

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Oh, what the heck. 1PLXzL1CBUD1kdEWqMrwNUfGrGiirV1WpH <= tip a hedgewars dev

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