To XP or not to XP?
Thu, 2010-01-21 16:58 — Uriah
Hello folks,
As you know we're very community focused here at Hedgewars towers. So rather than a news post, I'm writing to ask your valued opinion on a feature we've mentioned briefly in the past but never really discussed in detail.. XP!
At the moment, playing Hedgewars in a casual way doesn't really have an incentive (beyond the amazing amounts of fun you'll have obviously), we'd like to change that, and we're wondering how you guys would like to see this implemented.
There is one rule however, any rewards or levels gained by XP/Tokens/etc will be purely cosmetic, there will by no means be a game changing advantage for those who decide they want to stat grind.
My current intention is to give players XP per kill, allowing players to "level up" or raise their personal rank. Certain ranks will come with rewards, i.e. icons in the multiplayer lobby and the ability to use special emotes that set off impressive fireworks that become only more impressive as your rank increases.
What do you guys think?
As you know we're very community focused here at Hedgewars towers. So rather than a news post, I'm writing to ask your valued opinion on a feature we've mentioned briefly in the past but never really discussed in detail.. XP!
At the moment, playing Hedgewars in a casual way doesn't really have an incentive (beyond the amazing amounts of fun you'll have obviously), we'd like to change that, and we're wondering how you guys would like to see this implemented.
There is one rule however, any rewards or levels gained by XP/Tokens/etc will be purely cosmetic, there will by no means be a game changing advantage for those who decide they want to stat grind.
My current intention is to give players XP per kill, allowing players to "level up" or raise their personal rank. Certain ranks will come with rewards, i.e. icons in the multiplayer lobby and the ability to use special emotes that set off impressive fireworks that become only more impressive as your rank increases.
What do you guys think?
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claymore
Good idea, been waiting for this to come up again.
How about giving an XP bonus to the winner of a match?
dfisek
This is a great idea!
f13ticket
I'm devided. On one hand, it would be a way to reward players for playing the game. However, on the other hand, shouldn't we try to place all the content as visibly as possible to attract new players? Again, though, there is something to be said about MMORPG where finding items and rewards is part of the fun. I guess the thing I might caution is to not put too much effort into adding only rewards for the bonus only section and then development on the entry level of the game is halted. I think the idea of having the bonuses be cosmetic would help with that. I am just hesitant about the idea, I supposed, because the worms games and Wormux had nothing really like that, as far as I can tell. This type of game is known for having all the options open for the players to decide to include or not when creating rooms, teams, ect. Though, just because others do it one way doesn't mean we Hegewars can't do it another.
Uriah
If we do go ahead with this, chances are we'll add a "no XP" game modifier, so again we leave the players with the choices.
Xp for winning games is something that's logical.. but how do we make sure players aren't just throwing games to get bonus XP? Should we lose XP on suicides? Losing games? Let's flesh this out!
-jay-
I think xp and a cosmetic 'level' display would help to find players that are about the same strength, although there would be players finding ways to get a artifical low or high level of course.
(On the other hand you wouldn't need an xp system for that a 'won games/lost games' ratio display and/or 'games played' display could be sufficient although not as exact in case xp gain would be lower against weak enemies)
Also I wondered if features like custom automatically distributed maps/hats/flags/voices/weapons/whatever (if that ever will be implemented in some way) could be locked for new players and only available at specific min lvls to avoid new accounts spamming servers and players with ever random stuff they come up with.
Oh and if xp are given the whole team not single hogs then I think there shouldn't be a (e.g.) +12xp next to the hog when it kills, but either next to the team health bar or displayed after the game.
Just my thoughts, most ppl will go TLDNR anyway XD
Gallaecio
Instead of XP, you could just have some multiplayer (cormetic) prizes/awards for certain things. Not for winning/playing too many times (that could make some people spend too much time playing
, but for, for example, killing 5 (enemy?) hogs in a turn, winning without losing hogs (games with at least 3 hogs per team), and so on.
Other thing "usefull" couild be the player rate: wins/loses or killed enemies/lost hogs.
Just some ideas, take whichever you like
sheepluva
also I think it would be nice to reward players for using many different weapons or creative/unusual ways to kill in a game (e.g. a drill multi-kill)
but still: easy to cheat :/
Uriah
I was planning achievements too, outside of the XP system. Achievements would reward things like.. score a direct hit on a hog with the bazooka at X distance, things like that.
The main thing I like about XP, is the satisfaction you get from seeing it pop up after getting a kill.
rbaleksandar
There are many possibilities when it comes to when and what to earn in the game. But I do believe there are other matters that are more important. The games has great visuals now (more would be nice, but not essential), but still bugtracking, adding new weapons, more real feel when it come to playing against AI (that is - the AI needs a lot of work) are much more important at this point omho than some cosmetic changes. If you want to add something that shows how experienced a player is, it's much simplier just to add to the info of each player in the main server how many wins/losses he/she has like Gallaecio suggested.
BUT if you decide to implement this XP-system after all, here are some ideas:
Amount of XP should be calculated in such a way, that it shows how "professionally" a hedgehog's been killed (distance, weapon etc.) AND what's more important - to have in mind who's playing with who. Depending on how much experience a player has, if he/she plays with a much weaker/stronger opponent, each kill will have to bring less/more XP points. So that noone can "cheat". For example if a very strong player plays against a very weak opponent just to get some "free" XP.
). Here's the catch - you can win a game but with minus XP if you've commited more suicides than good kills, which is fair omho. 
Give XP just for multiple kills (2,3,4... with one shot or in on turn (two different things)).
Instead of some extra animations when being awesome killing innocent hedgehogs in the game, it's better to add to the information table of each player medals (bronze, silver, gold), cups etc. each of which will correspond to a certain amount of XP. For example 100XP gives you bronze medal, 1000XP gives you the silver, 10000XP - gold, 3 gold medals give you one small cup, 10 small cups give you an avarage sized cup, 20 avarage sized cups give you a big cup etc. etc.. Along with the small pictures of medals, cups and sh*t like this, the current amount of XP of the player should also be displayed.
A player that has commited a suicide without making any damage to ANOTHER player should be punished. Even when you drop a grenade next to an enemy and left your hedgehog next to it in order to cause more devastation after the explosion should be awarded. But suicides like throwing a rope in a wrong direction and falling into the water should be punished (unless you want to give some extra XP for great swimming lessons
The thing with giving XP for awesomeness and killing hedgehog in a very original way is that you cannot predict what sick way someone will think of when trying to destroy his/her opponet's army. There are too many possibilities here when it comes to killing poor animals.
That said I would love some nice fireworks.
mrtymek
You can give achievments for
- killing a number of hogs within a turn
- killing a number of hogs within a round
- killing within a time limit (within 10 or 5 seconds?)
- the well known for years >>PERFECT<< (in case someone is 12 and what is this - when you win without losing 1 single HP)
- killing without using a weapon, but an utility (drills, ropekills etc..)
- winning an uneven game? (haven't seen anyone playing David vs Goliat, but I don't play a lot...)
and so on and so forth...
As mentioned above, try to avoid easy cheating on XP.
Bertram
Hi,
What we have here:
- XP for killing, winning, ...
- Achievements for extra shots, and so on.
XP could depends on Achievements (An extra XP value for Achievements just done.)
Also, as third, the player could get a skill percent value for each weapon type (I mean not for the turn pass, nor teleport, though
), or the main weapons at least.
The average value of these skill percent could help people find other player with the same level.
I would love to get a screen or a frame within the tream selection screen where I can see my XP, my achievements, and my weapons' skill percent.
Also, at matches end, the earned XP, achievements newly done, and skill point modifications could be given.
Have a nice day all !
Tonio
I agree with XP in Hedgewars ! BUT, be carefull about so many things :
- Carefull to multiple accounts.
Maybe you should limit to 1 account with XP per computer ? Don't know if it is possible.
Many accounts (with XP) = Lot of cheats
- When you play for XP : block settings when lamps are yellow
Ideas :
- XP for winning game, not for killing.
- Getting XP only in "Classic games" (Default / Pro / Shoppa / Basketball)
- Getting XP only in 1v1 games or team games (2v2, 3v3, but not in 1x1x1x1 for example)
- Possibility to play for XP or for fun (while you set rules).
- We you create an account, we should have to possibility to choose : playing for XP, or not.
- Show the rank of those who play for XP.
- Does not show any rank of those who play just for fun.
2 ideas for the ladder :
- Showing the rank : near of the name of the player.
Example : "Tonio : 30th"
If I win against the 11th, I will get 3 points, and he'll loose 3 points.
If I win against the 1st, I will get 5 points (maximum to get) and he will loose 5 points.
If I win against the 80th, I will get 1 points (minimum to get) and he will loose 1 points.
- Showing points :
Example : "Tonio : 1250"
Everybody begin with 1000 points, and the same system as before, but with more points : +25 (maximum) / -25
Important : you must make a difference between winning against a better ranked and winning against a low ranked.
rbaleksandar
It is possible by limiting 1 account per computer (that is - limiting via IP adress), yet it's not a bad idea. First of all not everyone has a computer. For example a familiy has one computer where there are 2-3 children, a father and a mother. Let's say that each of them plays HW and has an account. So from one computer there are 5 accounts. By limiting it to one account per IP you cut off mom, dad and two poor children crying in a total desperation that they can't use the new awesome XP system.
Next example, which also refers to my case - I'm in a university network. All lodgings have different internal IP that is not visible to the world outside BUT we all share one single IP to connect to the internet. So if you make a limitation for my IP, you will limit hundreds of students. 
Than you might wanna to hide somewhere 'cause we're gonna getcha. 
Sooo...Please do not make such limitation. It might seem fair but I do believe I'm not the only one who'll suffer from this.
Another thing (that I mentioned in my post) - killing should give/take XP. Yes, maybe winning a match should give you a small amount of points but the big thing should come from killing. I gave an example for winning a game by commiting too many pointless suicides and not good enough kills. You should read that.
And no, it's not good if you don't get any XP when playing 1x1x1x...x1. You do your thing (killing and sh*t like that), so you should get XP for that. And besides - if you haven't noticed - most rooms are not 1vs1 or teamplay.
Tonio
Hey ! You should work instead of playing Hedgewars at university
!
I'm joking of course.
You're right about what you said (limiting IP).
I think it's more just to allow XP game for 1v1 2v2 and 3v3 games, and no in 1x1x1x1 games. Juste an example :
You play with 6 players in a crazy game. But you're the 6th to play. And when you are the 6th player in a crazy game ... you win with great difficulty, and sometimes you don't even play !
hoelk
I would be for a global per-worm kill statistic!
(for example so that you can see worm a from your favorite team has already killer 500 worms but only died 300 times) or something
Thomas
i dont want to disturb your xp-discussion but----i have a network here... so i start one game on my livingroom-computer with my thomas account, join from the bedroom computer and just let the thomas-team win... over and over that may be cheating but may not be controlled by the admins for my neighbour(same network and ip) plays hedgewars, too so ip-control wouldnt work or would not let one of us get xp
Uriah
My general feeling about cheating is that we shouldn't let it dictate which features we put into the game. There is almost always the possibility for cheating or dishonest play in video games, and though we can (and will, hopefully) try our best to limit it, the possibility will still be there.. We shouldn't let that stop us from implementing features we would otherwise enjoy.
There are many games that make use of similar systems, i.e. valve's team fortress 2. And it's just as easy to cheat in those games. But in many of these games the features are still a great deal of fun and work well to improve the game.
If we were going to award extra power or gameplay affecting rewards for XP gain, then I think this could be an issue. But if not we should simply ignore the people who go out of their way to cheat. And it won't be hard for those of us with admin powers to see that someone has gained an impossible amount of XP in a short time frame, if that happens then we'll take it away.
So for now, let's not worry about cheating or dishonest play and lets discuss how we'd like the features to be in an ideal world, uninhabited by the dishonest. And once we know what we want, we can figure out how to protect it.
rbaleksandar
Tiyuri, actually most of the anti-cheat ideas that people gave here (including me) are quite practical and make it easier for the players to find a worthy opponent on almost the very same level of skills they are. Ok, let's forget about cheating-matters. It's true that cheating or not brings you nothing in the game.
The main concern in gaining XP is how it can balance the gameplay in a matter of finding equally skilled opponents not what medals or special effects you have in the game.
Simon Brown
before XP, it would be fun to add more awards at the end of the game. One of the best parts of Worms was the hundreds of awards, and not just best shot- the "most intelligent" award, or the "sniper award," etc. once this is calculated, the structure will be set up for extra XP on these types of shots.
Inu
I vote NO to XP and YES to achievements!
If people wanna to along with XP it should not be for kills or deaths or anything but for "amazing shots", like sniper someone for the max damage, hit someone with bazooka or grenade from a *good* distance, etc.
With achievements\awards you could set rewards like:
Player shoots hedgy from 100+ hedgy-metters = achievement\award unlocked + cool bazooka flag
This would also make the players want to use "publicity" tags so that everyone could check their achievements, therefor creating publicity for the game.
>>>>>
In the end I am only COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY AGAINST saving kills, deaths, kill ratio, and stuff like that, as it will seriously decrease the number of games "just for fun". It would also send people on a kill cheating frenzy with their friends and to a sudden increase in dummy account creation.
<<<<<
Now regarding the *XP ONLY* idea again in case the achievement one is not well accepted:
It could be set up like this:
Hedgy killed: add exp
Match won: add end
Exp expiration date: 30~90 days (I'm guessing around 45 will be the best option)
- Based on those numbers give a "difficulty" ranking from 1 to 10 to the player
- Since the XP won has an expiration date the difficulty rating will be somewhat accurate
- No rewards should be linked to the exp system as it will impose some extra penalties to new players
This is just my opinion of course, but i guess i made some good points.
Skell
Cosmetic improvements to actual weapons after some kind of achievement with it (used so many times etc.) either individually, to all weapons as a set or to weapon groups (ie. grenade, gun, rocket) to indicate strong points of a player.
Also the ability to toggle which achievements are visible to other players.
I also agree with Inu's idea of expiration to keep the players information current and also to prevent some players from breaking impossibly far ahead of others(except for achievements which should be permanent)
Simon Brown
If someone wants to spend time racking up exp points playing against themselves or other bad players, let them do it... I don't think it's cheating, as it's still experience. It's boring, and a waste of time, but not cheating.
:P
rbaleksandar
Inu, as Tiyuri already wrote:
The kill-stats are really nice. There could be some extra visual tricks for blood-loving players.
As for the "XP without achievements" - I agree. But the whole idea behind the XP is to be able to evaluate the players and give them what they deserve (a bazooka in the a*se
). So if you mean "Only XP stats, but no visual tricks", that won't happen (I hope 
).
Lans
That's an awesome idea, e.g. medals like in a quake live, medals for good skills of some weapons, or stats 'games played/games won/games lost/kills/deaths'. But giving icons, smiles and other stuff as rewards is useless!
rbaleksandar
Missing the point, eh?
The whole thing is about making the game more attractive (gameplay and visually).
Lans
Sorry, looks like I've really missed something. Maybe, my bad English is the reason. =)
♫ DJ. LisT ♫
i want also XP decreasead per lose or bad turns.
so the players will not kill him selfs for give it free experience to another.
and if a player is playing bad for long time will decrease a level.
rbaleksandar
If you define a bad turn a turn, that end with suicide(s) and no damage done to the enemy - yeh.
♫ DJ. LisT ♫
maybe we can get experience not only by the automatic algorithm, but in a voting screen after the game, with the following rules:
-vote forced (maybe you decrease point if you dont)
, Claymore
, DctPl
and Bunny
.
, so it gains 3 points, plus 1 point for a nice turn.
-You can't vote for yourself! (of course)
-2 player game no rating (to avoid cheating)
-3 player game, each player has many points to give as numbers of hogs he has (for example: if i play with 4 hogs, then i'll have 4 point to give)
-also include automatic points for prizes, the winner, most damage, very nice turn, etc... But mainly by rating (like before).
.
Example: played a shoppa game of 4 players and 4 hogs each: DJ.List
.
.
.
Claymore and me, we got 2 points for great turns, Bunny 1 (1 nice turn), Dct won the game
Then, during the vote:
- I decided to give 2 points to claymore and 2 to dct
- Claymore decides to give me 1 point, and 3 points to dct because he is the best.
- Dct gives 2 points to claymore cause hes great job and 2 to bunny cause hi's his friend.
- Bunny gives me and clay 1 point and 2 for dctpl
So:
DJ.List.......+4 xp points
Claymore.. +7 xp points
Dct..........+11 xp points
Bunny..... +3 xp points
.
is that fair? it will be based first in your reputation.
rbaleksandar
Fair...Well, it depends.
I'm sure there are many people out there who definitely won't give the points to the winner even if he/she has made some big time butt-kicking. 
I can point out a couple more minuses, but there's no point. The idea is very good though.
♫ DJ. LisT ♫
I think it would be more fun and funny between players
than if it is all automatic.
Benny6890
in my opinion xp could be a nice source of motivation but the rewards for high xp shouldn't mess with the balancing too much... dunno maybe just some different skins - make your weapons and hogs look different or something. another feature that wouldn't be to hard to integrate i think are achievements - for all kinds of stuff.
rbaleksandar
@Benny6890, read the first post - it'll be all cosmetic stuff. No gameplay interference.
♫ DJ. LisT ♫
I was thinking long time, and arrives at conclusoin that experience is useless, and i decided to create a more fair sistem for all players and to make the game more entertaining.
All we can say whether we are good players, is evalacion of the other players.
ok, this is maybe a little crazy, but it's what imagine:
Here we have a new system:
We may have a personal reputation for the average grade given to us by others players. This can be a numeric value between 1-10, a symbol, a picture, a letter, etc..
Additionally medals or awards, which would also be given by others, as a reward for good with bazooca, well with the rope, a good friend
, etc (only good rewards). Also special rewards (like cup tournament, or game administrator, or something else).
During game experience are gained automatically, which gives no visible symbol level or to the other. The only thing that gives is we can get points (gold) and then give awards to other players. Example: spend 100 of my points I give a bonus DctPL artillery medal. when he reaches 10 bonus gets the medal of artillery, and this is visible to other players.
Other considerations:
- only activated users can show their reputation, awards and be able to vote.
I am active, for example, after a week of creating the character and terminated after 50 games(avoiding the accounts with false identities).
- the value of the player reputation is based on the average of their scores the last month (rated by the players), and expires with time (1 mounth).
- rating is required (if the game is completed successfully and the players still in). If player doesn't vote, will receive some sort of punishment(like no XP recived).
- Only activated users can vote(to avoid problems and make sure we know the player)
- Only voting opens in games with more than 3 players (avoid cheats)
- The vote is anonymous (to avoid conflict between players)
- Medals and awards were not expire with time (only the reputation)
- I can't add more than 1 team in the game(of course).
- After that i'm an active user, start with 0 exp-gold points and the average number/simbol earned in the 50 games played before.
this way solves many of the problems already mentioned.rbaleksandar
Yes, but it's not good to leave voting only to the players. Besides I really doubt that most people will even try to remember what exactly happened in-game so that after it finishes they can vote for this and that.
Well, many players just leave when they are beaten and therefore miss the rest of the fun and will also miss the voting. That is sadly a very common practice. The not-voting person will be punished but so will the winner and all other players that remained in the game until the end.
Don't allow voting when players are 2...That means that 1vs1 won't give anything no matter what awesomeness you show on the battlefield. Even - according to your logic - tournaments 1vs1 must not give anything to the participants?
============================================================
I think it'll be much better if we combine the voting and the XP. XP will be calculated automatically according to the raw power so to speak since the computer can calculate these things much better (distance, damage, health etc.). Voting should be a players' thing because a person can definitely give a good rating for creativeness, while the computer is still a heartless bustard without any imagination and cannot decide whether a person was creative in destorying an enemy or not. :D
Combining this too will eliminate more or less cases like being a winner with a great game behind you and being left with nothing because the others have left the game before the voting. At least now one will have the XP points.
♫ DJ. LisT ♫
I'm no good to explain:
1v1 without a vote->. Because of anger not want to give a good score on your opponent. Also this makes it harder for me to play against myself in another pc to give me a 10 :P.
About punishment, I meant-> will only be punished if they've played down to the end (like when you see the final graph) but would not vote.
If the player goes out in the middle of the game, goes unpunished.
If the game does not stop (do not see the graph), no one is punished (because did not finish).
About the experience-> I think the experience has to be calculated automatically, >> But used only to collect points to give awards to other players, and not to level up! <<. Otherwise serious as other games, which sometimes is played only for EXP, and forget the game. That's the problem
Because of that, I believe in the way I explained before (only visible reputation and experience points to give awards to others).
2-0.pl
Good idea
rbaleksandar
I'm not good at understanding.
No anger, no sorrow. I'm always glad to give my praise if I see/hear something that's awesome even when it has to do with my a*se being spanked.
I'm sure that I'm not the only one. Besides there always were and will be people, who hate to loose. And there also people who don't give a d*ng what the others think. For me the medals and additional animations are just a thing to make the game more attractive and to see how far I've gone in developing my skills (which suck) in this game. 
Nope. No problem here. Not for me and neither for you I think. If one wants to be moneky that jumps from one tree to another just to collect bananas but not to eat them, that's his/her problem. Games who play for fun are not interested in collecting...uhmmm...bananas.
Simon Brown
DJ List has an interesting idea that could add some spice to the game. In fact, in response to what sandar said about players quitting, I think it would encourage those people to stay in the game. If they quit, they get no chance of exp.
However, there has to be computerized awards as well, otherwise jealous people can just ruin the best player's scores.
I also like the idea (briefly mentioned) of points to spend- perhaps there could be a store where new hats could be bought, new themes unlocked and maybe even... eventually... new weapons unlocked?
That would be fun... The new stuff could be available only to the skilled players but anyone can join the game with the new schemes/weapons. Also, the weapons could drop randomly in crates...
rbaleksandar
The spending of points for weapons will unbalance the gameplay. Not a good idea. All players should have the same arsenal and rely only on their skills to use them. As for the rest - think Tiyuri mentioned something about unlocking special graves. Adding hats to the prize would be nice.
Points or whatever should add only cosmetic things.
N8theGr8
I wholeheartedly agree. I think that the XP system should be like Mario Kart Wii's. Each player should start at a given number of points, and then at the end of the round, points should be awarded or deducted based on damage dealt, style, kills, etc.