A case of discrimination in HW? (I hope not)

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Radissthor
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Hey everyone,

Today I came to know of two incidents that resulted in 2 players having their accounts banned.

One case I was particularly impressed about was a player who created an account with the name 'GAYTEAM'. This player was like any other player, and he played with no problems for a time, even learning to play some shoppa, which requires time as we all know.

This player told me that one day he entered a room where one of the devs was present. At that moment the dev banned GAYTEAM, quoting reasons of 'illegal name' or something like that. What surprised me even more is that Shepluva woud have also given the OK for this ban. This ban was permanent.

I would like to think the devs simply made a judgment error and thought this player was a troll of some sorts. I hope you didn't know he was just a regular player who happened to be gay, and named his team accordingly. I hope this is not the case, because otherwise it would mean at hedgewars we are OK with having 'killers', 'assassins', etc, but we don't stand 'gay'.... This would be tremendously discriminatory, and very strange to be found on an open-source community like Hedgewars.

This brings me to the second case. The player Barcelona1973 was banned for 3 days for cursing at another player in the lobby. I won't contest this. I in fact agree with a no-tolerance policy for verbal insult at the lobby. What I would like to remark is that this player was cursing at another player doing swastikas and nazi remarks on lobby and rooms. I wonder, was there anything done about this other player? I hope the same standards apply to violents and racially discriminatory behavior.

I just want to put this out there, to get a clarification of the misunderstanding, or start a necessary discussion if there is none.

Cheers

I only try not to die when I kill

sheepluva
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Effective troll is effective. First trolls until temporary ban, then spreads misinformation.
I heard all the arguments you mentioned before, from the trolling players themselves.

But since you're just misinformed, misguided and worried due to them, I'll will do my best to answer you.

Radissthor allegedly wrote:
I hope you didn't know he was just a regular player who happened to be gay, and named his team accordingly.

Accordingly, eh? You act like it is a common thing to name a team after the sexual orientation of the player. Hedgewars isn't a good place to thematize ANY sexuality.
Especially not in a player name. "HETEROSEXUALTEAM" is just as ban-able as "GAYTEAM" in my opinion.
That's why I said I don't oppose this particular ban, nicks that address sexual topics are generally not welcome.

On a side note: the caps lock style of the nick also gives me the feeling he purposely aims for attention in order to to stir up emotions and cause discussions. And as far as I saw that guy's discussion-style he is not out to teach people tolerance, but instead just to troll them or dunno. Or maybe he just doesn't put any thought into his own actions.

Either way I do not know why the nick was banned exactly, but I do not really care to be honest. Sexual theme in name? KK, np, reason enough in my opinion anyway.

Radissthor allegedly wrote:
I hope this is not the case, because otherwise it would mean at hedgewars we are OK with having 'killers', 'assassins', etc, but we don't stand 'gay'.... This would be tremendously discriminatory, and very strange to be found on an open-source community like Hedgewars.

Yes, I heard that argument before and it is lacking and unnecessarily "tremendously" dramatic, you are comparing apples with oranges:

  • Violence and murder is a theme that is part of the game (in a comic way, but still), hedgehogs kill hedgehogs, the game even uses the words "kills, assassinated, etc". Banning names referring to that theme would be quite weird and also hypocrisy I guess.
  • However, sexuality is NOT a theme of the game and could alienate players that like hedgewars for what it is, also could lead to players that are young and play with parental oversight to be disallowed to play anymore.

Radissthor allegedly wrote:
This brings me to the second case. The player Barcelona1973 was banned for 3 days for cursing at another player in the lobby.

Let me stop you right there, because that is just wrong. He was banned for one day because he was cursing and trolling, etc.
I extended the ban to 3 days after the IRC conversation that happened soon after:

#hedgewars allegedly wrote:

01:16 -!- barcelona1937 has joined #hedgewars
01:17 < barcelona1937> T_T
01:21 < barcelona1937> why not kick nazi scum too?
01:22 <@sheepluva> that type of talking got you banned to begin with. you sure you want to continue with it here?
01:22 < barcelona1937> why me? and not he?
01:23 <@sheepluva> What makes you think that "he" wasn't banned?
01:23 <@sheepluva> Also I'm not sure who you are referring to, due to your habit of calling people that term in general.
01:24 < barcelona1937> ok
01:25 < barcelona1937> thx
01:26 <@sheepluva> barcelona1937: people play hedgewars for fun, please try not to contribute to creating a bad and hostile atmosphere
01:26 < barcelona1937> LOL
01:26 < barcelona1937> nazi scum
01:26 < barcelona1937> cu
01:26 -!- barcelona1937 has left #hedgewars []

Radissthor allegedly wrote:
What I would like to remark is that this player was cursing at another player doing swastikas and nazi remarks on lobby and rooms.

That player is a general troll and yes he was kicked/banned a few times for different amounts of time.
Somebody named a room in a way that was against nazis and it had to happen what happened:
Some troll saw room name, some troll trolled, people kept feeding troll. Troll was taken care of by admin. End of story. Nothing to see here, move along.

Oh and by the way - THAT happened like a day or more before the incident that got Barcelona1973 banned. He was cursing at the player who trolled with swastikas long before (when Barcelona1973 wasn't even online iirc...) and who's case was handled at that time.
Just because somebody misbehaved (and was authoritative action taken against), doesn't mean that people can curse at that player all they want after that player returned.

Reacting to (past) misbehavior with own misbehavior is not making anything better, just worse, and will be treated accordingly.

I hope I could clarify a bit on the case(s) for you, if you have any further questions let me know Smile

Either way: Happy gaming!

  sheepluva <- me  my code stats -> 
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Matisumi
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As usual we find ignorance and "I heard that ..." on topics defending banned people

1) Concerning "GAYTEAM" name

Are you all non-thinking or just doing it on purpose ?
Can't you guys just understand that bringing such topic is stupid and create (like right now) useless and avoidable tentions ?

Calling his account "GAYTEAM" is the best way to bring all homophobics on the lobby for trolling all the way just because one personn decided to put in front of their eyes his sexuality (Do you see me writting up : "I'M BISEXUAL" or "I'M HETEROSEXUAL" What the hell for except trolling ??)

What the admins tried to do was to avoid such mess in the lobby just for ONE name.
Now think a second, if they were that Homophobic don't you think that knowing that the guy his gay they will ban his IP ? BUT NO ! because they'r not !

Also instead of blaming openly sheepluva just for just explaining the ban and not saying as you show it "It was a good thing I agree with that ban", stop listening to TIESTOU (GAYTEAM) cries on the lobby and learn first how stuffs happened

Proof :[23:21] ****: why do you always have different nicks?
[23:21] TIESTOU: because
[23:21] TIESTOU: i was permanent banned ¬¬
[23:21] TIESTOU: GAY stuff are forbidden here ¬¬
[23:22] TIESTOU: ****** don't like gay people lol

Im myself a defender of Gay-rights but I can't accept that, its just puting oil on fire

2nd) The 1937Barcelona case

First of all 3day aren't that severe

Spamming the lobby with different racist and insult talking deserve more.
It started when Folkfanmetal was sending a song (metal) and Barcelona instead of respecting others tastes spend his time trying to push Folk on his limits

example : [23:06] 1937Barcelona: i wanna crush some metal head

Now about Folkfanmetal, cursed by barcelona
He didn't used any racial or nazi world during that conversation and kept a calm that actually impressed me

Now I gave myself the copy of that chat and barca got punished (information again given by TIESTOU)

For Folkfanmetal, banned or not IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
Admins do their work and work for you don't forget it

_____________________ A secret person_______________________

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hihi

Admiratrice d'un mouton ;p

Radissthor
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Ok Sheepluva, thanks for the explanation Smile

I almost completly agree with you. As I said in my first post, I also condemn people that respond violently to violent behavior, so I wasn't really questioning Barcelona's ban. Just wandering what happened to the other guy, now I know, and I agree with how things were handled.

As for the GAYTEAM thing, I personally think that nickname is not such a big deal. I understand your concern for avoiding possible trolling, but honsetly who is against gay people nowadays? In fact I understand that he led a normal 'hw gamer life' until the ban. It's true what you say, violence is associated with the game, but still it doesn't mean that people can't say a bit about themselves with their team. A lot of people do it. I do it with my favourite thinkers, some people write their music tastes or movies, or jokes of some sort, etc... Maybe it's time to start acting like 'gay' is just another word, that describes something which is normal and shouldn't stir any controversy.

Now, I can't say I know exactly how things developed in this case. I did talked to GAYTEAM directly, but that's all I know. You say he didn't really expressed himself too clearly. Well, English is not his first language so there might have been communication problems.

Anyways, the point I would like to make is that I just hope there is not an zero tolerance policy for nicknames that display the player's sexuality. I don't see what's wrong with that. If we think other players will react violently if they see a gay player, then they are the ones that should be banned, for homophobics, not the gay player. Now, if the guy (or girl) who has a 'sex-related' nickname is indeed a troll, regardless of the subject matter of his/her trolling, I support the ban. Of course, ban the trolls, but don't ban gay people that just want to express their 'gayness' through their team. I think they have the same right as those of us who express our own interests in our teams.

I only try not to die when I kill

sheepluva
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Radissthor allegedly wrote:
I understand your concern for avoiding possible trolling, but honsetly who is against gay people nowadays?

For your information: a lot of people. In some countries homosexuality is even forbidden by law, in some cases even punished by incarceration or death.

Also in "western countries" there are still many against it - e.g. to quote the Wikipedia:
"In many cultures, homosexual people are frequently subject to prejudice and discrimination. A 2011 Dutch study concluded that 49% of Holland's youth and 58% of youth foreign to the country reject homosexuality."

I understand your idea of players expressing their own interests through their nicknames, but I personally still prefer if sexual interests are not publicly expressed within hedgewars/nicknames.

There are other games for that (if he is even old enough for them that is :P)

(on a side note: that nick could even upset homosexual people, because they could think that "gay" is used as a "funny" insult towards the own team or as some kind of insensitive pun, like a-team -> gayteam, rather than self-expression)

  sheepluva <- me  my code stats -> 
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Radissthor
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sheepluva allegedly wrote:

Radissthor allegedly wrote:
I understand your concern for avoiding possible trolling, but honsetly who is against gay people nowadays?

For your information: a lot of people. In some countries homosexuality is even forbidden by law, in some cases even punished by incarceration or death.

Also in "western countries" there are still many against it - e.g. to quote the Wikipedia:
"In many cultures, homosexual people are frequently subject to prejudice and discrimination. A 2011 Dutch study concluded that 49% of Holland's youth and 58% of youth foreign to the country reject homosexuality."

I understand your idea of players expressing their own interests through their nicknames, but I personally still prefer if sexual interests are not publicly expressed within hedgewars/nicknames.

There are other games for that (if he is even old enough for them that is :P)

(on a side note: that nick could even upset homosexual people, because they could think that "gay" is used as a "funny" insult towards the own team or as some kind of insensitive pun, like a-team -> gayteam, rather than self-expression)

Ok, fair enough. It conforts me to know that thought was put into this, and that it wasn't a rant or a discriminatory act, more specifically. I see your points and you have the experience here, so I'll grant you the point.

Thanks! Smile

I only try not to die when I kill

1937barcelona
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Yes, well sometimes I feel anger, sorry. The thing is Folkfanmetal joined my room and said something like "heil" and then left to the lobby. After that he then pastes a swastica symbol, yes, my rage turns on. Sorry for menacing folkfanmetal but he had been provoking me a lot, not only this day.
And my ban was for 3 days, before i joined on the irc and said some words to sheepluva. But not about sheepluva, i reffer to folkfanmetal like nazi scum. But sorry for my words, and if my poor english can be understood in other ways.

Rythm and blues

sheepluva
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1937barcelona allegedly wrote:

And my ban was for 3 days, before i joined on the irc and said some words to sheepluva.

I issued the ban, so I know for sure that it was 1 day / 24 hours first. I even double-checked the duration.

Try to stay cool in future, try not to get angry about those who want you to get angry. Thank you.

  sheepluva <- me  my code stats -> 
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