Flags/Graves/Hats

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Mopquill
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I'm not sure how well-known this is, and I've tried searching for it, but, I could not find anything. I'm sure the devs know, but, a lot of users seem to not know.

If you use a custom flag or a custom grave in a multiplayer online game, and the people you play with don't have that flag/grave, they will crash when trying to play with you. Other games like this handle it by sharing any files missing from player to player between each other before allowing the match to start.

Hats aren't transferred, but, they don't generate any errors if the other people don't have them, and they don't crash you out of the game you're trying to play with "graphics errors".

So, I was simply wondering two things:

a) Are graves and flags going to be fixed, where they won't cause crashes if you don't have all of the graves/flags that every use you're playing with has?

b) Are transfer methods for graves/flags/hats going to be included in the future? If so, how will they be implemented? I can think of two ways. The first, being that they will be transferred directly to your folders, so once someone comes in, you have that stuff too. The problem with that is, some stuff may be bad, and may get spread like viruses, and some people's collections may be inundated with stuff they don't want. The second method I can think of, would be to have a cache folder or file, and to store transferred files in there, with MD5 checksums having to do with userids and such, so they can be called for appropriate users/characters, and discarded after non-use, with perhaps an in-game option to save their stuff to your folder if you like it. This would encourage more people to release their hats, so they can get credit for having made them.

Anyhow, I know this game is still a work in progress and there's some stuff not done. And please, no one misunderstand my intentions as trying to rush the devs. I love this game, and I'm not by any means trying to put it down or rush its development. Consider this a disclaimer to all you people that like to speak on behalf developers, attacking anyone who shows the slightest grain of dissent or doubt. If I sound hostile in this last bit, it's only because I'm used to getting attacked for asking stuff like this. >.<

Listening is the first step, and the last step.

Smaxx
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a) Missing flags shouldn't cause any crashes/game quits. It should use the hedgehog flag instead. Graves don't have any handling for such cases yet as far as I know but not hard to add.

b) Most of the team were against introducing such "resource propagation". I understand that it's nice to have but it also removes our control over content. That doesn't mean that we'd like to restrict anyone in using his or her custom graphics. But we'd like everyone to be able to play this game and having fun without being troubled by others. You know, we've had tons of usernames with offensive names already and I don't know how many would just draw special body parts just to wear them as "hats" and offend others etc. There could be problems regarding copyrighted materials as well (allowing maps to be shareed) etc.

And just as a small side note: I'm working on something to make hats, graves and maps available more often than just full game releases but no details on this one yet. Wink Smiley

Mopquill
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Smaxx allegedly wrote:

a) Missing flags shouldn't cause any crashes/game quits. It should use the hedgehog flag instead. Graves don't have any handling for such cases yet as far as I know but not hard to add.

b) Most of the team were against introducing such "resource propagation". I understand that it's nice to have but it also removes our control over content. That doesn't mean that we'd like to restrict anyone in using his or her custom graphics. But we'd like everyone to be able to play this game and having fun without being troubled by others. You know, we've had tons of usernames with offensive names already and I don't know how many would just draw special body parts just to wear them as "hats" and offend others etc. There could be problems regarding copyrighted materials as well (allowing maps to be shareed) etc.

And just as a small side note: I'm working on something to make hats, graves and maps available more often than just full game releases but no details on this one yet. Wink Smiley


It's either flags or graves, I'm not sure which one causes the crash yet, as the person I'm thinking of uses both. Either way, there should be a placeholder/default for both, at the very least.

I understand where you're coming from, but you can't restrict content just because it *might* be offensive. I mean, there's text chat. If you want to be offensive, you're damn well gonna do it. I've been told to f*ck myself, to paddle a d*uchecanoe, and a bunch of other stuff, and that's likely far more offended than I'd get seeing some sort of anatomical hat.

I mean, hell, if you're that worried about it, just include some right click options. Right click a hedgehog, have the option of disabling that particular mask from being shown, or all masks from that user from being shown. Done, no longer offensive.

As far as copyrights go, you haven't included anything in your game. I mean, I have link in my avatar right now, and Nintendo's not breaking down my door. His likeness was drawn, and it's not commercial, and it falls under fair-use. I mean, you guys already have a Mario hat. That would draw you more trouble than anything else you could possibly aside from outright including one of their characters in your game. But the thing is, it's allowed. Any user can put any stuff they want to from another game. And if it's user-generated, the people who make the software are not responsible in ANY way. Like I said, it'd be different if you had a built-in option to be Mario instead of a hedgehog, and he could jump and do flips and punches but not use weapons or something. Hell, even that probably wouldn't get you any attention. As far as user-generated content goes, you're strictly not liable.

On top of all that, you can't sacrifice a game's playability for bogus copyright reasons. Talk to any lawyer, and s/he'd put your heart at ease. But moreover, making a game crash or just not able to see another player's stuff just sucks. And the reasons you've given are silly. I mean, there are a thousand other ways to remedy this problem while keeping this aspect of the game functional. It's silly to opt out altogether.

I mean, consider this: Have two separate areas of online play. Child-safe, where custom stuff will not be allowed and bad words will be heavily censored, and another area, which you can call whatever you like. No one will be in the child-safe area like, ever, but it would accomplish your goal without restricting the majority of users, who just want to make a cool make/flag/grave/combination thereof that their friends can see, and play a game.

I've run quite a few websites over a few years, and whenever there was a feature that could be abused, it was paramount to make it so the feature could a) be used as intended, and b) could not be exploited. You have to predict the bad things you really don't want happening, and block them. If it's something a computer can't figure out, you give the user the opportunity to make his own filters. What you don't do, is break or disable the feature based on what users "might do".

Conversely, you also can't leave the feature entirely open and rely on them to just not do those things. There will always be someone.

Anyhow, I feel that his is taking the lazy way out. Don't get me wrong, Hedgewars is a great program, and I'm ecstatic with what you guys have accomplished so far, but I feel it's a cop-out to leave out implementation of something because you're worried someone may offend someone. I mean, hell, you can get someone IP address from the online list. If I wanted, I could get those IPs, and disable everyone's computers. That would protect everyone from being offended by the internet, right? Big Grin

If I wanted to offend someone, I'd run their IP, figure out where they live and send them a damned post card. It's going to happen. Instead of trying to prevent people's behavior, give them tools to block that of others. To block users from seeing or joining their games, to block offensives hats, flags, graves, and whatever else the future may hold.

I'm sorry to keep ranting, but this has to be one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard. Imagine MSN: Microsoft has made the decision to block text chat, video chat, audio chat, and file transfers with other users, on the grounds that content may offend other users. You can still use your MSN account though, and you can still see you're friends online! Our new features protect you though, from receiving any content from them whatsoever, because it might be dangerous! Big Grin

I mean, give me a break.

Listening is the first step, and the last step.

FireFox
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No.

Mopquill
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FireFox allegedly wrote:

No.

I don't know who you are, but with all due respect, that was not productive at all. Please answer my concerns seriously, or stay out of my thread.

Also, you're not a browser.

Listening is the first step, and the last step.

FireFox
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Mopquill allegedly wrote:

..that was not productive at all. Please answer my concerns seriously, or stay out of my thread.

Your questions have been answered. Deal with the answer you were given.

Mopquill allegedly wrote:

I don't know who you are

Someone who can lock this thread.

Uriah
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Mopquill allegedly wrote:

I'm not sure how well-known this is, and I've tried searching for it, but, I could not find anything. I'm sure the devs know, but, a lot of users seem to not know.

If you use a custom flag or a custom grave in a multiplayer online game, and the people you play with don't have that flag/grave, they will crash when trying to play with you. Other games like this handle it by sharing any files missing from player to player between each other before allowing the match to start.

Hats aren't transferred, but, they don't generate any errors if the other people don't have them, and they don't crash you out of the game you're trying to play with "graphics errors".

So, I was simply wondering two things:

a) Are graves and flags going to be fixed, where they won't cause crashes if you don't have all of the graves/flags that every use you're playing with has?

b) Are transfer methods for graves/flags/hats going to be included in the future? If so, how will they be implemented? I can think of two ways. The first, being that they will be transferred directly to your folders, so once someone comes in, you have that stuff too. The problem with that is, some stuff may be bad, and may get spread like viruses, and some people's collections may be inundated with stuff they don't want. The second method I can think of, would be to have a cache folder or file, and to store transferred files in there, with MD5 checksums having to do with userids and such, so they can be called for appropriate users/characters, and discarded after non-use, with perhaps an in-game option to save their stuff to your folder if you like it. This would encourage more people to release their hats, so they can get credit for having made them.

Anyhow, I know this game is still a work in progress and there's some stuff not done. And please, no one misunderstand my intentions as trying to rush the devs. I love this game, and I'm not by any means trying to put it down or rush its development. Consider this a disclaimer to all you people that like to speak on behalf developers, attacking anyone who shows the slightest grain of dissent or doubt. If I sound hostile in this last bit, it's only because I'm used to getting attacked for asking stuff like this. >.<

Unlocked the thread, don't know why it was locked.

In a perfect world I'd very much like to include the transfering of assets from one player to another. There are a few issues with this however, both technical and design orientated.

My major issue with it however is that it would break the 'feel' of the game. At present all hats, graves, maps, etc all conform to a certain art style. The majority of players aren't artists, but no one can resist the urge to personalise their characters in any game, that would lead to a whole bunch of "drawn in paint" art appearing in every game, and I'm not sure I'd like that.

That said, we are constantly accepting new content, content that only surfaces at release time. This is something we're addressing.

Smaxx has brought up the ability to download and install extra content through the game interface itself. Meaning, although there's no sharing, user submitted mods would be in a central place, where players can easily go and get them if they wish to join a game using said mods.

This also makes the whole process completely optional, if I don't want to see certain hats that I feel don't "fit" the game, I simply won't download them and add the content to my game.

This whole thing is something that would require constant moderation, and I'm hoping community members like yourself would step up and volunteer for that.

Mopquill
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Tiyuri allegedly wrote:
Unlocked the thread, don't know why it was locked.

In a perfect world I'd very much like to include the transfering of assets from one player to another. There are a few issues with this however, both technical and design orientated.

My major issue with it however is that it would break the 'feel' of the game. At present all hats, graves, maps, etc all conform to a certain art style. The majority of players aren't artists, but no one can resist the urge to personalise their characters in any game, that would lead to a whole bunch of "drawn in paint" art appearing in every game, and I'm not sure I'd like that.

That said, we are constantly accepting new content, content that only surfaces at release time. This is something we're addressing.

Smaxx has brought up the ability to download and install extra content through the game interface itself. Meaning, although there's no sharing, user submitted mods would be in a central place, where players can easily go and get them if they wish to join a game using said mods.

This also makes the whole process completely optional, if I don't want to see certain hats that I feel don't "fit" the game, I simply won't download them and add the content to my game.

This whole thing is something that would require constant moderation, and I'm hoping community members like yourself would step up and volunteer for that.


This as a whole sounds a lot better than what I was led to believe initially. As far as the feel of the game is concerned, I definitely agree with you.

Would it be possible to, in some way, display the hats you don't have before a game begins and somehow ask if you'd like to have them? Because while they may be in an area that is central, most people wouldn't be going out of their way to grab anything like that, especially considering it would take checking for updates rather frequently. So something that notified users about specific hats could be useful. Maybe just an area in a corner with a scrollbar that just shows hats missing from people in the room. That way, it's not persistent or annoying, but it's constantly available for anyone who wants it, when they want it, without having to go somewhere different. It could even just be an expandable/collapsible area.

My skills lie in just about everything computers sans programming. I've got web design, web programming, graphic arts, you name it. And I run several web sites and forums, and moderate a few others. I'd be happy to offer any help you'd need.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to answer, Tiyuri. =]

On a side note, Firefox, please read the last paragraph in my first post. That was preemptively directed at people like you, attacking me simply for trying to participate. Last I checked, you're allowed to dislike or like certain features of games, and participation from the community is what helps make things like this great. Attacking someone who disagrees with you doesn't sound like a great example of that. And it couldn't hurt to be more polite to strangers, either.

Listening is the first step, and the last step.

claymore
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Quote:
My skills lie in just about everything computers sans programming. I've got web design, web programming, graphic arts, you name it.

That's good to know.

Anyway, I don't think there's enough quality content to make implementing such a system worthwhile. A WA-style repository might be nice eventually though.

Uriah
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Mopquill allegedly wrote:

Tiyuri allegedly wrote:
Unlocked the thread, don't know why it was locked.

In a perfect world I'd very much like to include the transfering of assets from one player to another. There are a few issues with this however, both technical and design orientated.

My major issue with it however is that it would break the 'feel' of the game. At present all hats, graves, maps, etc all conform to a certain art style. The majority of players aren't artists, but no one can resist the urge to personalise their characters in any game, that would lead to a whole bunch of "drawn in paint" art appearing in every game, and I'm not sure I'd like that.

That said, we are constantly accepting new content, content that only surfaces at release time. This is something we're addressing.

Smaxx has brought up the ability to download and install extra content through the game interface itself. Meaning, although there's no sharing, user submitted mods would be in a central place, where players can easily go and get them if they wish to join a game using said mods.

This also makes the whole process completely optional, if I don't want to see certain hats that I feel don't "fit" the game, I simply won't download them and add the content to my game.

This whole thing is something that would require constant moderation, and I'm hoping community members like yourself would step up and volunteer for that.


This as a whole sounds a lot better than what I was led to believe initially. As far as the feel of the game is concerned, I definitely agree with you.

Would it be possible to, in some way, display the hats you don't have before a game begins and somehow ask if you'd like to have them? Because while they may be in an area that is central, most people wouldn't be going out of their way to grab anything like that, especially considering it would take checking for updates rather frequently. So something that notified users about specific hats could be useful. Maybe just an area in a corner with a scrollbar that just shows hats missing from people in the room. That way, it's not persistent or annoying, but it's constantly available for anyone who wants it, when they want it, without having to go somewhere different. It could even just be an expandable/collapsible area.

My skills lie in just about everything computers sans programming. I've got web design, web programming, graphic arts, you name it. And I run several web sites and forums, and moderate a few others. I'd be happy to offer any help you'd need.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to answer, Tiyuri. =]

On a side note, Firefox, please read the last paragraph in my first post. That was preemptively directed at people like you, attacking me simply for trying to participate. Last I checked, you're allowed to dislike or like certain features of games, and participation from the community is what helps make things like this great. Attacking someone who disagrees with you doesn't sound like a great example of that. And it couldn't hurt to be more polite to strangers, either.

I'm sure it would be possible to display hats/content you dont have and ask you if you'd like to get it from our repository.

In the same way, we could have the game prompt you when you attempt to join a game hosting a map you don't have.

This will circumvent many of the problems you have with the lack of sharing, I think.

This is just one of the possible "solutions" to this problem, and I can think of others too. It's something worth exploring

Mopquill
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Tiyuri allegedly wrote:
I'm sure it would be possible to display hats/content you dont have and ask you if you'd like to get it from our repository.

In the same way, we could have the game prompt you when you attempt to join a game hosting a map you don't have.

This will circumvent many of the problems you have with the lack of sharing, I think.

This is just one of the possible "solutions" to this problem, and I can think of others too. It's something worth exploring


That would definitely be very cool.

Absolutely. It was more that the understanding I was given of this was that sharing would not be possible normally due to lack of control over content. Now that I understand, it all seems like a good idea. =]

Yeah, it's definitely worth exploring. Solutions, no matter how good they sound, can usually be hammered out into something much better. So, if we all keep our minds open and work toward this common goal, I have no doubt we'll end up with something amazing.

Listening is the first step, and the last step.

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