cake bomb is unfair

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Fabioamd87
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yeah! i hate this weapon... everyone can win with it...
no brain is necessary to kill with it...
please remove or at least reduce this weapon or not make it default...

rbaleksandar
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I do believe you've just lost from your 6 years old sister Big Grin That's why you hate it so much Wink Smiley

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Fabioamd87
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argg

affect
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play ZNM15 mode with us, it only has bazooka nades mortar and 15 secs to move

Now when we have drunk some beer let's go drive a car.

Josh
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heh, simply put. Don't like it, Don't include it in the weaponset.
/me cakefanatic :P

Fabioamd87
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then lets make a weapon that you click on the enemy hedgehogs and he die...

Josh
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Ok. Give it a 15 turn delay and it becomes fair.

imnotsonic
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personally, i am not a fan of the delays. if ppl don't like the weapon, as it has been said before, then they can turn it off (or not play on whatever server they are on) personally, i would love to have a mode with just the airstrike stuff but i can't now bc of the delays. i loved the cake when it was first introduced but now i don't include it when i play online with friends and family bc it takes to long before i can use it so why bother. it would be like putting a delay on death's head in scorched earth 3d...

Josh
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heh. Fair point.
We really need to be able to define the delay in the weapon setup, Just like in worms...

Fabioamd87
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yeah but in worms there was the "old woman". She turn back if hit an obstacle, dont walk upside down and explode after some seconds...

really, cake is too much strong weapon, we don't need a brain to use it... then make the game not really "strategic"

i can kill an hedgehogs that are in the other side of the terrain without any difficulties...

someone remember old woman no? and mad cow? very nice weapons!

Josh
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Old woman did rock, but remember this is a "worms styled strategy game" not a direct clone.
IMO the cake adds more strategy, it sure did in the game I played last night online, people were being VERY cautious of where the rope/teleported to. It also adds another way a construction girder can save you. Wink Smiley

Uriah
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I'm going to respond to this thread because I'm super awesome caring wonderful dev.

The Cake bomb is a strategic element in the game, it's actually a DEEPER strategic element than other weapons that require more skill to use. Let me explain how.

The Cake bomb almost garuntees a kill in the right situation, however it is delayed from the start. What this means is that it becomes a mid to end game weapon. Towards the end of the game, ammo becomes low, kills become more and more difficult to make and the ability to use the cake bomb effectively actually becomes lower, as you run out of ropes and parachutes that will enable you to be on the same terrain as your foe, and much of the terrain has been destroyed.

Now, good players will play the game as a whole, planning ahead rather than taking a kill whenever one is available. For example, when airstrikes become available, it's very tempting to just drop them on the first guy you see uncovered. However, a good player will save their airstrikes, knowing that towards the very end of the game, there will be less and less cover, Hedgehogs may be stranded, and the ability to reach the last hedgehog (and their ability to reach you!) is severly compromised, that coupled with the water rising (forcing hedgehogs to go up high, and out of cover) increases the power of the airstrike 10 fold, just for saving it.

The cake is the same, it is a high mobility weapon that becomes increasingly potent as hedgehogs find it more difficult to reach eachother. Choosing which turn to use the cake on is actually a massively strategic decision, though the cake doesn't require all that much skill to actually use, the ease of use and almost garunteed kill becomes a part of the overall strategic nature of the game.

Effectively, the person who saves the cake the longest is going to be the most powerful at the end of the match, meaning there is incentive not to use it. But save it too long and you're going to get wasted by it before you have a chance.

Start thinking of the game as a whole, not of individual turns, and a lot of weapons will make more sense in terms of balance.

Josh
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Tiy sums up what I've been trying to explain.. (Although I explained it poorly :P )

Fabioamd87
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in 1vs1 hedgehogs who have cake win, and if both have cake who have the first turn win or win at 98%
we can defend from airstrike by hiding us understructure or put steel bars on us...

but how to defend from cake?

ps: in witch worms weapon is inspired cake bomb?

rbaleksandar
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A very good way to defend yourself (like from almost every weapon) is to make a bunker Smile Dig a deep hole and block it with a steel bar. In that way no cake can rich you Smile Another strategy is making a pixel field (the only positive aspect of this thing probably Smile) I've noticed how difficult it is for a cake to walk through it since it seeks uninterrupted ground. And a pixel field is everything but not uninterrupted :P So by making a pixel field, you can be 99% sure that no cake will be able to reach you (because it'll get stuck somewhere in there Smile). If you are not able to make a pixel field (like you don't have any napalm), try to make two deep traps on both sides of your hedgehog. So deep that they reach water. When you make an island, the cake won't be able to reach you since it cannot swim Wink Smiley

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Josh
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Although the blast radius may still reach you when in a pixel field.

And now I quote myself:

Josh allegedly wrote:
It also adds another way a construction girder can save you. Wink Smiley

rbaleksandar
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Josh allegedly wrote:
Although the blast radius may still reach you when in a pixel field.

And now I quote myself:

Josh allegedly wrote:
It also adds another way a construction girder can save you. Wink Smiley

If pixel field is big enough - no chance. And about the grider - if don't put it like I said, the cake will climb it and get you Big Grin

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Josh
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I'll make an example if I have to, but you are right. You need a deep enough dip into the land to protect yourself. :P

Fabioamd87
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protect yourself by putting you in a hole and close with a steelbar? and how to attack? :S

piexel field? you waste napalm only from protect from a weapon?

Josh
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Airstrike, drill bomb, Napalm, DEagle, tunnel to a location on the map they can't get to next turn etc.

...and no, you take advantage of already used weapons.

Uriah
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Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:

in 1vs1 hedgehogs who have cake win, and if both have cake who have the first turn win or win at 98%
we can defend from airstrike by hiding us understructure or put steel bars on us...

but how to defend from cake?

ps: in witch worms weapon is inspired cake bomb?

This is untrue,

Again, towards the end of the game the landscape is often close to completely destroyed, there are lots of "islands" of land, completely unconnected to other pieces of land. The only way to get to these would be to save both your rope, and your cake, until the end of the round. A good player wont have 2 hedgehogs on the same small island. Thus we're talking about having to save your rope AND your cake, just to make one kill at the later stages of the game, sound overpowered now?

Creating these islands can be part of strategy, breaking the terrain in the way you desire whilst achieving kills.

On top of this the rope is one of the most powerful weapons in the game, it can be used to make multiple kills without losing your game and gives your hedgehogs insane amounts of mobility, so saving it in order to use the cake isn't a small sacrifice.

You need to start thinking about when certain weapons come into play and preparing for them, if you know the cake will be available to the opposing team in X turns, prepare for that.

Also, a 1v1 game is usually close to over before the cake is even available, and if you play a 1v1 with lots of hedgehogs/health to make the game last longer, then the potency of the cake in the overall context of the match is decreased

Josh
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If all hasn't been summarised, now it has: the cake won't be removed. it's one against a community on this one it seems, Sorry Fabioamd87.

Fabioamd87
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I belive in natural selection...

Josh
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Some form of God allegedly wrote:
The cake has been 'naturally' selected to stay.

Josh
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Wink Smiley

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Gods from Ancient Greek Myths allegedly wrote:
Democracy is the only way we can follow
Big Grin

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Josh
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Lawl ^_^

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Don't mess with the Gods Wink Smiley

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Fabioamd87
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I can kill you also without cake's Smile

Josh
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And does anything say we can't? Wink Smiley
*Ropekill* XD

rbaleksandar
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Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
protect yourself by putting you in a hole and close with a steelbar? and how to attack? :S

piexel field? you waste napalm only from protect from a weapon?

By making a bunker you are protected from other weapons too. Don't forget that Wink Smiley

Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
I belive in natural selection...

Big Grin We are all going to extinct one day, don't worry Wink Smiley

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imnotsonic
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i understand the strategy in having the cake later in the game but i really wish we could have a choice whether to use the delays or not

here's to hoping one day i can have an all napalm or rc plane fight!Flying

rbaleksandar
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imnotsonic allegedly wrote:
i understand the strategy in having the cake later in the game but i really wish we could have a choice whether to use the delays or not

here's to hoping one day i can have an all napalm or rc plane fight!Flying

I still can't understand what's that with the delay? You have delay. After releasing the cake you can choose in a curtain period of time when to blow it. Actually it's like the grenade. Only here you can time your cake to blow for example 6.10345 seconds after release. Way too accurate. Cake can't walk forever too. If you don't stop it after some time, it does that alone (Big Grin cake with brain - cool Smile). Sooo...No problemo Smile

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Josh
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nonono, the turn delay.
He (And I) want to be able to specify how many turns you have to wait before specific weapons become avaliable.

rbaleksandar
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See no point in that. It'll kind of spoil a bit of the game, because you might want to have a match with all weapons activated right after the game's started. There will sill be complaints about the reason I mentioned above. There still be many people that are fond of the old style with the game taking the decision when to make a weapon available and not the player. Wouldn't mind to have such option but don't think it's necessary to have it.

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imnotsonic
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oh, i wouldn't want to play that way on an official server but just at my house with some friends. it would be nice to have an all cake battle or all rc battle. just for the quick laughs. it would get old just as quick (like my weapon set titled "crazy" which just has 3 hellbomb, 3 watermelon, inf seductions, inf kamikaze, and inf ball gun) but it would still be fun. agreed that it probably doesn't need to be high on a list of to do's.

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RCPlane can deal twice as much damage as a cake. Dynamite will deal as much. Rope can kill without losing turns. Bazooka against a mine will deal 90 damage. They're all imba, aren't they?

Fabioamd87
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yeah, but you should use brain for damaging with all of those Wink Smiley

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ok its simple remove the dislay what a weaoon a user use and then make a 2 round shild

when i use it no one know it an when anyone use the cake i online fly a little bit away from his exlosion but 2 rounds long no one can hit me (only the hedges that have dont use the shild in my team its only for one hedgeshog )

The hedgeshog what use it cant use in this 2 rounds any weapon that make damage only roes and etc ^^

a shild is a good answer of big weapons
but only when no one can see what i use when i select it
and this musst be a standart else anyone realise that i use the shild

what you think ?

rbaleksandar
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Didn't quite get what you mean Smile

Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
yeah, but you should use brain for damaging with all of those ;)

Nope Smile It's slower to use the TNT - yes, but it ain't difficult. Go to him and put it on his head (to do max damage, because if the TNT explodes on your head, you bump into the ground beneath your legs and receive a decent amount of damage Smile). No thinking Smile Or no more than by the cake, since when you use cake, you have to bear in mind all the obstacles that your cake will meet on its path to glory and destruction Big Grin It can walk a curtain distance. The more hills, holes etc, the longer it takes for it to cross them, and when time's over, it will explode sometimes before even reaching its target. Wink Smiley

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Fabioamd87
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obstcle? The cake have no obstacle! walk in any direction on any terrain on any angles, upside down too!

and time is not a problem since it is 15 (if I remember) seconds!

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Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
obstcle? The cake have no obstacle! walk in any direction on any terrain on any angles, upside down too!

and time is not a problem since it is 15 (if I remember) seconds!

The cake is basically a walking dynamite.

unC0Rr
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exactly Cake

Fabioamd87
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ttsmj allegedly wrote:
Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
obstcle? The cake have no obstacle! walk in any direction on any terrain on any angles, upside down too!

and time is not a problem since it is 15 (if I remember) seconds!

The cake is basically a walking dynamite.

I can't see the point...

rbaleksandar
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Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
obstcle? The cake have no obstacle! walk in any direction on any terrain on any angles, upside down too!

This ain't true. If the target is way too far for the cake to reach it in 15 secs, it will do...nothing Smile And secondly (I think I mentioned this in some of the above threads): if there is an "island" (like in the maps "Plane" or "EarthRise"), and your target is on it, cake will do...nothing Wink Smiley Even using the cake needs some planning. Yes, it can walk on a terrain with any angle, but:
1)it can't cross water (imagine cake with a boat Big Grin) or air
2)pixel fields (one of the few good things about them) make it really difficult sometimes for the cake to cross them AND it takes a lot more time for it to do that.

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Fabioamd87
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in 15 seconds you can go wherever you wont

rbaleksandar
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Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:
in 15 seconds you can go wherever you wont
Big Grin:D:D

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rbaleksandar allegedly wrote:
imagine cake with a boat :D

lol a cake paddling over the sea!

@Fabioamd87: every team only has one cake. isn't that fair enough. It's not like there was a cake war Big Grin

And during 15 seconds you can go whereever you want - that's true - with the rope! and of that you have 4! not 1. You can also drop dynamite while hanging at the rope and even escape afterwards. Or just do ropekill. As it was said many times before: Cake is not unfair, it's just another weapon for the game's strategy.

rbaleksandar
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Let me explain a little bit:

1)There are maps where there's almost no use of the cake (Bath level for example; if you divide the two players by teams - one on the left and one on the right ducks - nearly no chance of using the cake!)

2)Even on maps, where you can use the cake, there are some places where it just can't reach its target within these 15sec. Believe me, I've tried it, and it's been tried on me Big Grin

3)Especially with HW 0.9.10 with the new res for even bigger maps...It'll need 4-5 more of this 15sec to reach end-to-end. So cake will become even weaker.

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Marvin allegedly wrote:
rbaleksandar allegedly wrote:
imagine cake with a boat :D

lol a cake paddling over the sea!

@Fabioamd87: every team only has one cake. isn't that fair enough. It's not like there was a cake war Big Grin

And during 15 seconds you can go whereever you want - that's true - with the rope! and of that you have 4! not 1. You can also drop dynamite while hanging at the rope and even escape afterwards. Or just do ropekill. As it was said many times before: Cake is not unfair, it's just another weapon for the game's strategy.

you are sayng nonsense, I exmplain Why:

yeah the team have only one cake, but if you take it until the end (1vs1 hedgehogs), you have GREAT advantages on your enemy, because it have sure less then 70 healt (in most cases)... and you surely kill it.

yeah, with dropping bomb with rope you can excape...
But with the CAKE BOMB you just don't neet to excape!!! because you can be far!

yeah you have 4 rope, ... then? how many kills you can do with one rope?

a question to all:

Are you satisfied when you are in 1vs1, you select the bomb press space, wait that the bomb reaches the objective and press space and win?

Me no.

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Fabioamd87 allegedly wrote:

yeah the team have only one cake, but if you take it until the end (1vs1 hedgehogs), you have GREAT advantages on your enemy, because it have sure less then 70 healt (in most cases)... and you surely kill it.

Play the game Smile I'll just say - you should've killed him earlier Big Grin Sure I am satisfied. All my b*tches are dead. His too. There was a total massacre. Why the hell should I not press the button if I can? Geek In this game everything is planing! If you use your weapon(s) in the wrong moment, it's your fault entirely. One have to plan these things. The guy who kills you with his cake has spared this for the last moment. He lost one or more of his hedgehogs because he didn't use it then...But it's worth it. You have to wait for the moment and then - press the button.

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